I was chatting to a mate after work on Saturday night about bike fit. When I got home whilst looking for a bike to feature in this Friday’s Bike Lust I happened to read a comment from Ben of Argonaut Cycles about how most riders can fit on standard geometry – both events got me thinking…
The mate in question is a trained bike fitter. He’s had his own custom bike made before, but has also always been happy on standard geometry frames. The comment from Argonaut is one I’ve heard a lot in recent times. Cervélo for example claim that their six or eight frame sizes will readily accommodate almost every size of rider based on stack and reach measurements – quite a claim when Colnago produce the EPQ and C59 in something like twenty two sizes to achieve the same thing.
But when I look at the geometry of the Baum I struggle to understand how I will ever fit on a standard geometry frame again.
Allow me to run you through a few things about the geometry I run…
- I am 179cm tall with a 91cm inseam
- My saddle height is 79cm
- Saddle-to-bar drop is 9cm (neither extreme nor relaxed)
- Saddle is 8cm behind my BB
- Top tube = 55.5cm (tip of saddle to centre of bar reach = 54cm)
- Head tube = 19cm
- I run an external (Tune) headset + 10mm spacer – a total of 35mm
- Fork crown to top of 10mm spacer = 23cm (remember that saddle-to-bar drop)
- I run an 80mm BB drop (most frames are 65-75mm – and again, remember that saddle-to-bar drop)
- Stem length = 110mm (length maintained to keep handling sweet)
- Handlebar reach = 85mm
- Angles are relatively normal at 73º seat and 72.5º head, with a 43mm fork rake
- Front-centre is around 586mm (from memory)
So what? Well…
- To match my rangy 23cm distance from the top of the fork crown to the bottom of the stem I’d be looking at around a 60cm+ frame on most bikes – that would make both my top tube and my front-centre way too long
- My larger BB drop results in a saddle height that (from the floor) is up to 15mm lower than it would be on most standard geometries
- This means on a standard geometry frame, the same bar height will result in up to a 15mm increase in my saddle-to-bar drop
- To prevent my 9cm drop increasing I’d need to run a higher front end which may mean going up a frame size or two – which would lengthen my top tube and front-centre even more
- To be able to run a 55.5cm top tube I’d need to run a 53-55cm frame, which would obviously bring that front end too low again
Taking on Cervélo’s belief that any rider can fit on their geometry based on stack and reach, most of their 56cm frames would leave me running too many spacers to adhere to the frame and / or fork warranty, and most of their 58cm frames would have my running my saddle so far forward I’d probably be at risk of breaking the saddle rails. Equally, having checked out the standard geometries of Argonaut and… well, most other frames on the market, none of them even come close. The only frame design that has even approached being close enough was my Look 585 Optimum, but even that wasn’t quite there (my Pegoretti was very close, but the top tube was marginally too long, I had to run an inline post [which Dario is adamant his frames are not designed for] and maintaining my 9cm drop meant running 30mm of spacers – visually hideous).
Yes, I could run a longer top tube with a shorter stem and short reach bars, but the handling would be compromised. As it stands a 110mm stem isn’t actually that long (many frame builders would cringe at the thought of running anything shorter on a frame of my size) and until a couple of years ago the 85mm reach bars I run were considered to be short reach – so much so that even now they’re called ‘short & shallow’. If I were to run a shorter stem and an even shorter 75mm reach bar I could readily run a 57cm Pegoretti or a 59cm traditional geometry Colnago, but neither would sparkle the way they probably should because of the compromises to force them to fit, and I’d probably still need to ram my saddle forward on an inline post to achieve the right overall reach.
Where am I going with this? Well, the recurrence of my shoulder problem appears to have come about through having built a winter bike that ultimately doesn’t fit me. Sure, I made a mistake in the setup and thought it was closer to where I needed it to be that in actually was (idiot), but having (mostly) corrected that mistake I’m now running 45mm of spacers, a slightly lower saddle and a short reach bar – and it’s still not *quite* where it needs to be. Besides which, 45mm of spacers is just obscene.
Before I bought the bike in question I toiled and troubled over the geometries of countless options, but was finally convinced through a bout of twitter banter with the guy who designed the frame I ended up with. In my heart of hearts I knew better, but I reasoned that this was the guy who would know for sure so I went along with his advice.
More recently I’ve been hankering after a Colnago and had come to the conclusion that I could ‘get away with it’ on one of their standard sizes. The recurrence of my shoulder pain lead to the realisation that ‘getting away with it’ just doesn’t cut it, and I’ll probably never experience a Colnago as Ernesto intended on that basis. Unless I get a custom one of course, but I don’t think I’m patient enough.
Yes, riding the frame you want is nice, and yes you can make (force) the frame you want fit you. But it’d be a whole lot nicer if it actually rode as it was intended to ride. Fittings are invaluable. Essential. Before you consider that new frame why not ensure it’s going to fit you properly first? You’ll get a lot more enjoyment from a bike that rides how it was designed to because you’ve bought something that suits your needs and fits you properly than from riding (for argument’s sake) a Cipollini with 50mm of spacers and an upturned 90mm stem just so you can say you ride a Cipollini, regardless of the fact you’ll never know how good that bike should actually feel.
It’s obvious now, but In building my winter bike I should have followed the advice and knowledge I have garnered from numerous bike fittings, from the hours I’ve spent churning over all of the knowledge those fittings have given me – the knowledge that resulted in the geometry I now run (in perfect comfort) on my Baum. The knowledge that makes me realise no standard frame will ever really work for me. At least not the way it was designed to ride.
This is the very same knowledge that means Baum number two isn’t as far away as I previously thought it would be…
Hey Rich,
I wish i read this before buying my latest bike! Funnily, like you, in my heart of hearts i knew the Evo’ geometry doesn’t really fit me but i also fell for the idea of riding one!
So I’am running 45 mm of spacers and a 90mm stem…
Are you sure that your BB drop is 80mm?
100% positive it’s 80mm – my previous bike was 75mm and Darren wanted to drop it down a touch, mainly to lower my centre of gravity and make the bike less top-heavy.
I have quite long legs for my height at 178.5 cm and inseam of 87.1 but not as extreme as yours. Even with my measurements I am aware of the same problem. I also ride about 90 mm drop. There is no way a standard frame would fit you without compromise or a flipped stem.
The problem with a bike fit is that there are too many idiots doing them as I have found out.
i think your post could have benefitted from some aggressive editing. just the first and last paragraphs would have worked brilliantly! roll on baum #2….
oh and i meant to add – you are definitely freakishly long in the leg (for your height), and i intend to get a baum next time i go to Oz (whether the missus agrees or not)….
“Where am I going with this? Well, the recurrence of my shoulder problem appears to have come about through having built a winter bike that ultimately doesn’t fit me.” This. I’ve got back pain from building a winter bike too big for me. My solution is to buy a custom frame!
Who are you going with for your frame Claire? Look forward to hearing all about it…
Sorry for the delayed reply Rich. I’m getting mine built from Shand Cycles in Scotland –
http://www.shandcycles.com. They build in steel which is a leap into the unknown for me as i’ve
never had a steel frame before! I’m so fussy about fit though, if I’m even 1mm out I can tell.
I’ve just changed the saddle on my Trek for a one that fits my sitbones and I cannot get it
set up right for some reason; i’m beginning to think it is too long which considering the
saddle cost £100 is a bit of a shame! :O
I battled with the Tripster for a few months before deciding the pain was unbearable – my
phyio says one side of my pelvis has dropped due to the position i was in on it. I figure it is better to get a custom frame that fits me 100% than spend loads on physio and work my way through a variety of frames to find that they don’t fit properly!
I think my main issue is being small, female and having a “want” list for the bike. It is
going to be my winter road bike, used for light touring and cx riding so I want disks, mounts for mudguards and panniers. There’s no off the shelf frame small enough for me that tick all the boxes.
Oh, it is also going to be purple too!
Just ordered a custom Viner Perfecta, hoping to benefit in exactly the way you describe compared to what I’ve ridden in the past. Bit of a leap into the unknown, as you can’t quantify the benefits until you’ve spent the money and actually ridden the bike.
Fingers crossed!
Rich, Your Baum is reasonably new (about 12 months, I think?)
How long have you been riding bikes, were all of those years in some sort of pain or discomfort?
Your measurements do sound extreme, and you have my sympathy. I am lucky enough to buy an off the peg bike in a 54cm top tube, set saddle height, slam stem, fit pedals and go. Have done so for the past 6 years, in 7 different bikes (of 6 different brands)
I suppose you are the exception to the rule, but I must say, if I ride around this fine city and look at cyclists, I would guess about 10% are properly fitted to their bikes. The number of flipped stems and spacers blows my mind (and not mentioning the ridiculous saddle heights). Maybe online shopping is to blame…
Been riding for around 18 years, but only 4 or 5 on the road. The pain was quite sudden in appearing, but I always knew I was struggling to get my bike fit right – I tried 56cm frames where the reach was good but the saddle-to-bar drop was extreme (10-12cm), or 57 and 58cm frames where the saddle height looked more normal and the saddle-to-bar drop was less extreme but the reach was poor.
My recent Kinesis purchase was what really highlighted how the BB drop affects my ability to get my position right, and my most recent CycleFit session (my fourth fitting since I’ve been riding road, done around 3 weeks ago) further highlighted how I could still make changes to help my shoulder.
I’d say your guess of around 10% of riders being correctly fitted to their bikes is about right. You’d be amazed how many people just won’t listen though, and mostly because they’re riding the bike they want to ride (be it to emulate their favourite rider or just for bragging rights on the club run) rather than something that actually fits them. I’d also say that around 75% of people riding have their front ends too low – I consider a drop of over 8cm to be extreme for anyone who isn’t pro, or incredibly flexible (which is another thing – many people [myself included] consider themselves to be more flexible than they actually are).